Video: What to Consider When Adopting from a Different State

Jess Nelson, Community Manager at PairTree: If you are considering adopting a child from another state, you have probably heard the term ICPC process, or if you know or you have noticed an additional type of ICPC fee in your contract or fee agreement with your agency or attorney, and you've probably been told that you'll need to plan on spending at least 2 weeks in a different state, but do you know why?

So for those of you just watching this, my name is Jess. I'm the Community Manager here at PairTree, and today we are going to be talking with Diana Schimmel, an incredible attorney licensed in Pennsylvania and New Jersey, and we're going to be talking about the Interstate Compact for the Placement of Children specifically, as it relates to domestic infant adoption.

Diana is a partner at Martine, Katz, Scanlon and Schimmel, a boutique family law firm where Diana specializes in adoption and family formation law. And just a disclaimer, even though we are talking to an attorney today. Nothing we discuss should be considered legal advice.

So, Diana, thank you so much for joining us today. Do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself, and kind of how you got involved in adoption law?

Diana Schimmel, Esq.: Sure. Thank you so much for having me today. I'm really excited to talk with you about this. I have been practicing now for about 14 years. I've exclusively been doing family law and specifically adoption and family formation law. I started my career in the public arena. I was a child advocate attorney for children in the juvenile dependency system in Philadelphia and most of the attorneys who worked in that area, we would, at the point of adoption, sort of send the cases on. However, I wanted to stay on with my clients and understand that side of the process as well, so I got very familiar with adoption on the public side. Then, when I went out into private practice, because adoption is such a niche, I sort of became the go to person that the other attorneys would talk to and send their cases to, and I had that working knowledge from my time with the city, so it evolved from there. And now I've really honed my practice into working with adoptive parents, looking to adopt domestically.

J: I love that, and you are such a wealth of knowledge and such a resource for the families that you talk to, and I certainly know that you are one of the top attorneys that we refer families to in Pennsylvania and New Jersey.

D: Thank you. That's very nice.

J: Yeah, of course. So how common is adoption across State lines? Now.

D: We're seeing it much more often, I think, just in general, our world today is so much more interconnected because of social media and people transitioning and moving wherever they are, especially with being able to work virtually from anywhere. But what we're seeing with the changing social climate, the changing political climate. We're seeing waves in different states pop up. And also when people are working with agencies, they're able to broaden their reach. And specifically, even when they work with agencies like PairTree. You guys have that nationwide reach. You're not just looking specifically in. You know your tri-state area. So it's become much more common.

J: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's a great point that you make with the rise of, you know, social media and the Internet, families being able to utilize that and expand their outreach. And not only does that benefit adopting families, but that really benefits expectant moms, you know, if an expectant mom is in a state like Iowa or Idaho, and she might be expecting a child of a different race than you know. The majority of the population. In some of those smaller States the Internet has allowed her to be able to find and have more choice in the adopting family that she's looking for, to really find the adopting family that she feels is going to be the best fit for her child.

D: Absolutely. And I think on the other side of that, adoptive parents really now aren't limited to the pool in their local vicinity. So now they can cast a much wider net and potentially be matched with a child that they wouldn't have necessarily been introduced to, if not for, the connectivity of the country through the Internet.

Navigating Adoption Between Different States

J: Yeah, absolutely. So, how does the adoption process differ when there's 2 states involved?

D: That's a great question. So if you're in one State and there isn't an ICPC you're managing everything under the laws of that one individual state. Now the documentation, the basics like a petition for adoption, the surrender of parental rights, any of the legal consents, those things are always going to be present in both a state and a state case. But what adds the extra layer to the ICPC process is, you're going to need to complete requirements for both the sending state, which is where the child was born, and the receiving state, which is where the child will be residing ultimately with their adoptive parents. So you're now talking about different states that have to work in concert together. So there's going to be additional legal documentation that's required. And that's really the biggest from the form perspective. But the biggest from a practical perspective, is now that means, you know, if you've matched while the birth mother is still pregnant. Are you able to travel and go to those you know prenatal appointments? Or is it via facetime or zoom? Are you going to need to make preparations to, you know, be in that state ahead of time around her due date, because it's not just a car. Ride away. It's a flight away. And then are you going to need to? To which the answer is, yes. Make arrangements to stay in that state after the baby is born, because of the ICPC process.

J: Yeah. And I think all of those are things that families need to keep in mind when they're considering or when pursuing or being open to adopting a child from a different state is, can you make those additional trips out there? Are you financially able to spend 2 weeks in a different city, because that's going to be expensive. Can you take that time off work? How much leave time do you get from your employer? And so I think those are all really important things that families need to consider when they're talking about adopting from a different state.

D: Absolutely. I was just speaking with a client who's here in Pennsylvania, and they were looking to match with a potential child who was out in the Midwest, and even some of the things they were considering was if this child is due in February, are we going to be able to fly out there, or are we going to get because of a snowstorm, or you know, what am I going to do about driving? Because the airport closest to where birth mom is delivering is min away. So there were actual logistics that we were really considering as opposed to if that was somebody on the east coast, within a driving distance away, instead of a flight away.

J: And I saw someone posting on social media today that they had been matched with an expectant mom. Baby came yesterday or the day before they're right in the path of Hurricane Helene. They got into Florida to meet this baby, and an hour after they got in, the airports all shut down. And so there's just so many things that you have to think about when you are preparing to adopt from a different state.

The Interstate Compact for the Placement of Children (ICPC)

J: So we have used the phrase ICPC quite a few times already. But what is the interstate compact for the placement of children?

D: Sure. So really, at its core. It's a mutual agreement between the child's state of birth and the receiving state where the child will be residing once adopted, and the process authorizes the sending State to work together with the receiving State. So it ensures that the child is placed across State lines with adequate protections and with the proper support. So that we're not just trafficking, you know everyone across state lines, and then everything is done above board and to ensure that the adoption is done legally, ethically, and and the correct way.

J: Perfect. What steps are involved in the ICPC process, and how long? I know we've said a couple of times 2 weeks. How long should that ICPC process take?

D: Sure. So I typically find it's between 2 and 3 weeks. But there are considerations that can make that shorter or longer. So like I mentioned. I'm here in Pennsylvania and New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey talk all the time. So interstate cases with the Tri-state area here Pennsylvania, New Jersey New York super fast. We can see those on the one week side, because again, the offices know each other. They know each other's requirements. If there's a longer wait time. It could be because maybe Nevada has never worked with New Jersey before, and they don't speak each other's language, and they're still figuring out each other's procedures. There also could be unique considerations in your particular case that have nothing to do with the respective States. But I think the longest one that I've ever seen was 3 months, but that was a very, very unique situation. We were doing things sort of out of order. But I think your assessment of 2 to 3 weeks is great.

D: I think what's involved and what I think people can understand is picture it like a game of telephone. So the 1st state picks up the phone and says, Hello, how can I help you? And they have a list of requirements. So they're going to need their basic ICPC documents. And this talks about a statement from your attorney about where you're going to be finalizing the adoption and how parental rights are going to be terminated. You're going to be doing an acknowledgement of placement case, history, legal and financial acknowledgments, expenses paid home study is a huge one. They're going to need a copy of that. They're going to need a copy of the agency who did your home studies license. They're going to want to see that there's been a power of attorney, so that, pending the adoption, the adoptive parents can make those decisions medically for the child, and in addition, they're going to want to see. Well, what is the receiving state going to ultimately ask me? So they're again getting on the phone, saying, All right, I've got everything I need in my State. I'm going to need all the consent documents. I'm going to need the legal paperwork, the explanation, and then I want to know what the receiving state is going to do and once you and your attorney submit that packet to the Sending State, the Sending State picks up the phone and says, Ring, Ring, Hi, New Jersey, you're the receiving state. Now, what do we need from you? And then New Jersey takes a look at everything that California, or you know, Nevada or Florida is sending them and says, Okay, I'm gonna review what you've just sent us. And then I'm gonna ask a couple of questions, or ask you to fill out this form instead of that form and make sure that we're managing every State's requirement as best as possible to be able to sign off. And ultimately, what you're going to be getting is a 100 A form which you'll hear that term a lot, but it ultimately is the rubber stamp that says, Here's state 1 that sendings approval, state 2 that's receiving approval. And that's what you submit to the court to say, Hey, we've gotten the interstate clearance.

J: I think the game of telephone is the best way to describe that. I mean, I remember spending several late nights at the office assembling ICPC packets for clients so that they can. We can start that process and try to get them home sooner and if I say one great thing that came out of the pandemic, It's being able to submit electronic packets in some states now.

D: Yes, and I really have to give a lot of credit to the representatives in the various State offices. They are absolutely lovely, and usually, if you pick up the phone or you send a quick email, they're willing to help you. So you know, just to give people who are watching this video an idea. We're submitting, not 3,4,5 documents. We're submitting 35 documents, 40 documents, 50 documents. It's a lot that's on the list. And you know, no one here is trying to stump you when your attorney is submitting them. So I was working on a case recently where I had submitted my documents, and I inadvertently didn't attach one of them, and you know, not in a gotcha moment. But the social worker called me, picked up the phone and said, Hey, I don't think I saw this one. Do you want to double check you know? Could you make sure I have it, you know, in another case. If you know they want to make sure everything is signed, and up to date they'll call you and say, Hey, I noticed this is expiring soon. Could you get this from the agency again? So we have a current license on file. They're trying to help you make sure that you create the requirements.

J: Absolutely. In 99.9 % of cases. The ICPC administrators are not trying to keep you in that sending state. They want to help you get home just as much as you want to get home.

D: Yep, Absolutely.

J: I don't know if you have heard anything about this, but Georgia, I know, is now kind of cracking down on families and placements that have used facilitators to make that match, because facilitators are illegal in Georgia, and they're starting to pay really close attention to some of those those matches and ICPC packets that they're getting. And we were talking to a professional last month about a family who has been stuck in Georgia for over a month, because that match was made through a facilitator, and Georgia's cracking down on it so they weren't able. They haven't been able to leave and go home yet because of how that match was made. And so you know, just a piece of advice for adopting families when you are pursuing adoption, and you're considering adopting in a different state. Make sure that you are doing your own research. Make sure that the professional that you're working with is doing their research, and that the matches that you're entering into and those placements are in accordance with those State laws, so that you know those ICPC administrators, aren't, you know, having to ask those questions and and uphold or keep you there, you know, longer than you should be.

D: You raise a great point a lot. Some of the placements that I manage for adoptive parents actually didn't come from matches through agencies. They were, you know, private or or through family friends, or through religious communities, and most recently I had one where it was truly just a family friend arrangement and my clients were smart enough to consult an attorney both where the child was going to be born in California, and they talked to me in New Jersey, and we all talked right away. But you know that could have been, you know, a worse situation for them had they not talked to attorneys, and we did get questions from both California and New Jersey, but ultimately we were able to give them what they needed. But they wouldn't have been able to necessarily navigate that without consulting with you know most States, and having those conversations and reputation representation when they did.

J: Yeah, absolutely. It's so important to have that. That's, you know, one of the 1st pieces of advice that we give to families that come directly to PairTree without being partnered with an agency or an attorney already is to find a great attorney to talk to, to answer questions, to help kind of guide you on this process. Like you say, a great attorney is really a quarterback for you on your adoption journey. And so just being able to, you know, even if you end up signing up with an agency just being able to have an attorney that you can reach out to and ask questions and ask guidance is such an invaluable resource on this journey.

D: I agree, actually, I was working with a couple recently, and they had a potential match opportunity in Washington State, which I know Erin, your founder is out there. And you guys have knowledge there of the community, the adoption community there. And it was perfect. I happened to be speaking with you and Erin about something else, and I said, Hey, you know I haven't actually done an adoption in Washington State,what do you think out there? Who do you know out there? And you guys were able to give me, you know, a reference for somebody from my clients here in Pennsylvania to then talk to you so that they could understand some of the risk factors or positive considerations about Washington law if they were going to consider applying for that match.

J: Oh, perfect! I love to hear that this is what happens when everyone in the adoption community connects. We're able to help guide and support adopting families and make sure expectant mom’s have the choice that they need on this adoption journey, and I love it.

D: Yeah, absolutely.

J: So I know, I'm sure. At least, if I was an adopting family, told that I was going to be, you know, kind of stuck in another state for 2 weeks, I would ask the question, “What happens if I leave before ICPC says so?” Can I do that?

D: Hmm! It's a big question that I 99 % of the time get asked. And my answer is always a resounding No, you cannot leave the State.

D: Now. That doesn't mean you can't do things to make it a little easier for you. Number one is, if you are going through this process with a partner. You guys can rotate. So if not, if both of you can't take off that much time at work. Maybe one of you stays for the 1st week, the other one stays the second week, or if you're close enough, you know you rotate or alternate. There just has to be somebody there with the child at all times until the ICPC is completed. Now I'm certainly not recommending this, and I'm not encouraging that you do this, however, I have worked with a couple who left the State where the child was born before the ICPC. Was approved, and ultimately we just finalized their adoption in August, but it took over a year for that adoption to be finalized because of the retroactive nature, and how we had to manage things and it certainly was not ideal. So you really want to focus on staying in the place where you're going to be, where the child's going to be born. The other thing that you can do, and this helps a little bit more. On the east coast, where the States are closer together, is, say, the child's being born in Virginia, you know you have family in Maryland, and instead of, you know, renting a home in Virginia. Maybe you're able to just stay over the Maryland State line.I view this as a loophole because you're technically not allowed to go home to your home State, but it doesn't mean you just have to leave. You can't leave the actual state. So sometimes clients will do that in our East coast area to avoid.

J: And not even just the East Coast. When I was working in Louisiana we would have families drive, one family that drove from Wisconsin, and so they were driving back, and they waited until they got ICPC approval from Louisiana. They were just waiting on, you know, the receiving State, but they started making their way home. So they didn't make it all the way home before they got approval. But they at least started that, you know, 20 hr drive.

D: Good for them. I think that's great. Yeah the point I think, that people need to understand is you can't leave the birth state, and go home to your home state, where the child will live. You can leave the birth state in general and go, maybe you know, like you said, make your way back up to Wisconsin or over the state line, but you're not going all the way home to settle, to reside, to have it be that permanent end spot.

J: And I know that for so many adopting families, kind of being told that you have to stay in one place for 2 weeks that isn't your home,you don't necessarily have your big support network. It can kind of feel like you are stuck there. But if I can just give one piece of advice to adopting families I would encourage you to you know really take advantage of that time. You know your kiddo was born there. They have history there, you know. It's a part of their culture, especially in a state like Louisiana, that has such a deep and rich history and culture. Take advantage of that time. Spend some time there being a little bit of a tourist, you know. Take lots of photos, get a special souvenir from that state. You know, your kiddo is going to grow up, and you're gonna be able to show them like we spent weeks in Louisiana like visiting where you were born. Look at everything that we did and especially ask your attorneys, or your agency, or your caseworker for recommendations of what to do while you're in that state. I know that the law firm that I used to work for, I put together a whole kind of visitor's guide of things to do, best restaurants to check out stuff like that. And so I know that there's several other, you know, agencies and attorneys that do that. But really take advantage of that time and soak in those first few days with, you know just you and your significant other and and your kiddo before you have to get back to real life.

D: That's such great advice, and I love that you provided a visitor's guide. I think people forget also, you're bonding with your child during those first 2 weeks. So even if you were at home, you're really not getting out there and doing much, and some people want to take that space before visitors come over. So it's almost like a built in way to bond with the child you're welcoming into your family.

J: Yeah it really is. Okay, I know that I'm very type A, and I know there are a lot of Type A adoptive parents. Is there anything that adoptive parents can do to help their professional during the ICPC process?

D: Yes, absolutely. I think number one is being responsive. Open communication. So if you're being asked to review a document, complete a document, sign a document, provide something, do it quickly, and if you don't have it, confirm with your attorney exactly what's needed, and then get it as best as you can. I think responsiveness makes all the difference when we're working in this situation. I think the other way that they can help is to not overly follow up. I know it's very hard, but I find that the more you sort of spin your wheels the more nervous you get, and then, for some reason, whatever it is. Those are the cases that take the longest. If you just sort of let it go with the process, and trust in your attorney, and the fact that everything that they've done and completed for the ICPC is going well, that can be helpful, too. And I think asking questions is another piece of advice. I give it to everybody, and that can help through the ICPC process. Because if you don't know and your attorney is waiting for something from you, but you think you're waiting for something from your attorney, then that adds delay. As a result of it and it sort of ties into the communication as well. But ask questions if you're not sure.

J: I think that's great advice and just kind of a follow up question to that. Yeah. So in your professional expertise, how long should it, in theory, take for an attorney to get that ICPC packet filed?

D: Sure. So a lot of times we try to get as much done as possible beforehand. So we're not waiting like we're not doing it like the minute that the child is born. Obviously, some of the stuff you can't do until the child is born, but we're trying to get it done as much as possible. I always say to clients, I overestimate, and then hopefully, it's less time. I try to say a week, but I try to do it within a day or so, because a lot of it is already done so when I you know, I say a week. People are like, Oh, my goodness! And I say, no, there's other factors, and then, I guess, get it done in a day or 2, you know, after they are expecting it. Then, you know, it's better to do, under promise and over deliver. I think. But again, some of this stuff we're not reinventing the wheel on it's also going to depend, like for me when I do cases here in New Jersey and Pennsylvania. I know exactly what forms the States want, so it's much easier for me to get those done and done quickly, whereas if I, you know, need to find out exactly what you know, Illinois needs versus. You know what I'm used to here in Jersey and PA. It's a little bit different, but I try to work as best and as fast as possible.

J: Yeah. And just for everyone listening, an ICPC packet can't be filed until surrenders or TPR have been signed correct?

D: Correct, because that is part of the packet. So what you're providing ultimately to the sending excuse me, yes, the sending state is the surrenders, how rights will ultimately be terminated. What jurisdiction are you going to be filing the adoption complaint in? Was there an authority to place? Was there a counseling requirement? All the things that need to happen up and until surrender, and at least in the jurisdictions I practice surrender can't happen until 72 hrs after the birth of the child.

J: So for everyone kind of trying to navigate that timeline, your ICPC packet won't be filed until a minimum of 72 hrs after birth, and that's, you know, assuming that everything goes according to plan. And Mom is actually able to sign in 72 hrs. So just keep that in the back of your mind that the ICPC wait time doesn't start until after surrenders or TPR are able to be signed.

D: And sometimes like when I was just working recently there are specific documents in addition to the surrenders that need to be signed by birth parents like a statement of understanding, or like. In Pennsylvania, we have a version of open adoption called notice of Act 101. So again. I have to present all of those documents that can't be signed until surrenders have been signed. So those are all going along at the same time. So some of the stuff we can get done, you know, quickly. But others, we have to wait that time period.

Two Different States, Two Different Sets of Laws

J: Let's talk about the difference in adoption laws for a second. So for families adopting from a different State which States Adoption laws should be used or will be used? Is there ever a reason to use one State's laws over another?

D: That's a great question. So you could use the law of the State where the child is born, where the adoptive parents live, or where the agency is licensed. So that gives you some options in terms of where you might want to file, and I will give you an exact example that I deal with all the time, because Pennsylvania and New Jersey have distinctions. So when receiving a child placed through an agency in New Jersey, when a birth parent signs their surrenders. Those are irrevocable. However, in New Jersey, or, excuse me in Pennsylvania, when they sign their surrenders, they have 30 days to revoke. So there are pros and cons to both. And sometimes either a birth mom or an adoptive parent, or both in collaboration, will elect specifically one side or the other, because they don't want to go through waiting days or birth. Mother wants to make the decision once and not have to relive it again and wait the 30 days, you know, to decide if it's final or not.

D: Another consideration is certain States will allow birth Mother expenses versus not. So New Jersey allows for some more expenses available than Pennsylvania does. So again, that can be a consideration. Other factors are ease of the actual process and filing. I know I have a client right now in Philadelphia, which is one of the largest cities in the country. It's extremely backlogged. They didn't want to wait months, you know, between hearings. It was all done a little quicker. So they chose New Jersey instead. Some States treat whether or not a birth father is known or unknown, a little bit differently as well. That can sometimes be a hurdle, and how that's managed. So people will choose, you know, a state because of that as well. There may be states that, you know, have fewer ICPC requirements, or have worked with a state more regularly than another state. So for me, when a client comes to me and says, Hey, I'm considering a match in Xyz state. The 1st thing they ask me is, what are the pros and cons of the laws of that state. And hopefully, I know, and if I don't, I reach out to my network, and we all share that information with each other, and I usually am able to get feedback from my clients. That's positive and negative for both places, so that they can decide and make that decision.

J: Yeah, just another great reason to make sure that you have an adoption attorney on your adoption team so that you can ask questions like that when you do have a match in a different state. And I think another thing that adopting families take into consideration is the length of time to finalization. You know when I used to work for an attorney in Louisiana, we would get a lot of cases where the expectant mom was in Louisiana, and adopting parents were in a different state. Louisiana had a really long delay for being able to finalize adoptions. It was a year. Yeah, it was kind of the way that they did that law that definitely favored agencies. So if it was an agency placement, the waiting time was only 6 months. If it was an independent match or through an attorney they had to wait a year. And so oftentimes they would opt to finalize in their home state because they weren't waiting a year to finalize the adoption.

D: Yep. that happens all the time here, I mean, I mentioned the Revocation period. So in Pennsylvania, if birth Mom signs her consents to surrender 72 hours after birth. You then have to wait 30 more days. So that's 33 days. Now then, on that 34th day, that's the 1st day you can even file the adoption packet, the adoption pleadings, whereas in New Jersey you could file right away, she could sign 72h after birth and walk right over to the courthouse that same day and file because they're irrevocable and same thing in Pennsylvania since it's 30 days after a decree goes into effect, and unfortunately, some of the States interpret all a little differently. They may make you wait another 30 days, you know, before the finalization is scheduled, whereas New Jersey again, it's a little more streamlined. So in one state it's taking you 2 months and another 6 or 7.

J: This has been such great info and so many things to think about when you're considering adopting a child from a different state. Last question, do you have any advice for families that are either considering adopting a child from a different state or kind of in that waiting period, and awaiting their ICPC approval?

D: Sure. So for those waiting for ICPC approval. Patience is easier said than done. But patience! Like, I said. The people who are working in the agencies trying to get the States coordinated. They're not trying to delay this for you on purpose. They're just trying to dot all eyes and cross all t's, so try to have patience as much as you can. And then, in terms of selecting or considering out of State adoption, and then moving through the ICPC process, I really would suggest listening to and leaning on your attorney, especially one who takes an approach similar to how I described and what you described, which is holistic and connected to the adoption community overall over the nation so that we can guide you in that way. And have level expectations. This is not a process that happens overnight. We're not saying it has to take, you know, years and years. But it's not gonna take, you know, one day either. So those expectations from the beginning.

J: Great advice and such great information. For anyone who wants to reach out to Diana, you can find her at Martine, Katz, Scanlon and Schimmel. I will link all of her contact info with this video. And thank you so much for joining us and and just sharing your your knowledge and your wisdom.

D: Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm really excited to talk about this and give the information to those who need it.

J: Thank you.